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Talk:A Shinobi's Dream…!!
Timeline screw-up... again So, folks, looks like Kishi effed up the timeline again: :When Madara and ōnoki (why don't we have capital ō/ū, btw?) fight, Madara's still a Konoha ninja. :When ōnoki and the tsuchikage talk, ōnoki is younger than when he fought Madara, while the Tsuchikage is older than when the first kage meeting was held. :The first kage meeting, however, was only held after Hashirama defeated Madara and collected Kurama and a few other Bijū. The reason I think this to be a mistake is because when the Tsuchikage lectures onoki, his beard has grown since he met the other kage. Is that enough proof to consider the whole thing as a mistake? Seelentau 愛議 08:15, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :When was a timeline established for the first meeting except for in this chapter? I think Hashirama was tackling tailed beast way before that, Kurama was possibly the last because he noted that he could "no longer allow him to roam free" or what have view. So he could've had the others but no Kurama. So timeline for me would go: Hashirama has tailed beast except Kurama→ meeting is held (young Tsuchikage)→ other guys get their beasts/$→ Kurama becomes issue→ Madara goes to Mū and Ōnoki and says screw what you agreed to, swear fealty to Konoha. The last two can be interchanged.--Cerez365™ (talk) 08:23, September 25, 2013 (UTC) ::But Hashirama wanted to give the beasts to the other countries to balance the power between them, meaning he already had a beast (Kurama), while the others hadn't (except for suna). Seelentau 愛議 08:36, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :::If i may butt in...since Hashi has the power to supress the tailed beasts, i don't believe the balance was threatened in anyway. Darksusanoo (talk) 08:39, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :::I think Cerez "timeline" is probably on the money, the last two are probably interchangable because like because like Seelentau said, Madara was still a Konoha ninja when he had his meeting with Mu and Ohnoki. Kurama became an issue after Madara used him, which was after he went rouge. Do not forget that Kumo tried to capture Kurama before, with the Gold and Silver Brothers, but they were eaten instead. Since Kurama was sealed inside of Mito after Hashirama's fight with Madara, that means this attempt pre-dates the battle. Ay also explained that after the Gold and Silver Brothers assimilated the Nine-Tails' chakra, another shinobi attempted to do the same with one of Gyuki's tentacles, but died, meaning Gyuki was already in Kumo's possession before Madara and Hashirama's duel, but then again we don't know which Tailed Beast Kumo was given for the agreement. Omega64 (talk) 08:43, September 25, 2013 (UTC) I think we're forgetting that Madara left, once Hashirama was appointed Hokage. But hey, just b/c the Perriot anime portrayed Madara w/ a Konoha headband, doesnt mean it's right. That's wrong. But back to the point, just b/c Madara was loyal to the "interest" of Konoha, doesnt mean he was still considered a shinobi aligned to it. I cant say for sure if i support either Cerez's or Selen's P.O.V., so i'll, just remain neutral, for now. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 09:06, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :Well the problem with that is the Leaf Headband was in both the manga and the anime. Remember, we don't know how much time passed between the creation of the village and Madara's defection. Hashirama was indeed Hokage when Madara defected, but how much time between Hashirama's coronation and Madara's defection afterwards it still unknown. Abandoning your clan and village was probably something that took Madara some time to consider. Remember when he met with Mu and Ohnoki, even though he was a Leaf ninja, he still had a great deal of hatred for Hashirama, as he wouldn't even allow them to say his name. So its perfectly possible that the Five Kage Summit occurred, then Madara fought with Mu and Ohnoki, and finally he defected and used Kurama to attack the Leaf. Omega64 (talk) 09:39, September 25, 2013 (UTC) Seriously, so the length of his beard is to serve as an evidence? ._. So just because he didn't want to look like a tramp during the meeting but a still mighty and capable representative and so cut his beard, it's a timeline error? 0_0 Disappoint' Seel--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :Yeah, it's one the the weaker arguments I ever had. However, you can't possibly disagree when I say he looks older in the Iwa-room than he does at the meeting? Seelentau 愛議 15:42, September 25, 2013 (UTC) Gotta say, I don't really see an age difference between the times we've seen the First Tsuchikage. Omnibender - Talk - 23:06, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :His point is that his beard was shown longer while farting into Onoki's face than when the meeting took place at which point Madara was already "dead" As I said, he simply cut it or Kishi decided to change his beard ._.--Elveonora (talk) 19:48, September 26, 2013 (UTC) Guy with Mizukage Of course this is all speculations so.. But dosn't he seem a bit like a member of the seven ninja swordsmen of the mist (we don't know when they began though). His arm- and leg bands, is similair to those which some of the members from the group had on. Or what do you say? Could be added as trivia somewhere. --Kasan94 (talk) 17:50, September 25, 2013 (UTC) :Just a coincidence for now, so no. Omnibender - Talk - 23:06, September 25, 2013 (UTC) error? um, how exactly did suigetsu know that karin got stabbed by sasuke in the fight with danzo in this chapter? "you'll just get in the way and get stabbed again" -suigetsu hozuki in "a shinobi's plea" --Caseather (talk) 04:43, September 26, 2013 (UTC) they have been traveling together, and suigetsu been traveling with sasuke even before Karin showed back up. so sasuke or Karin could of simply mentioned it to him.--J spencer93 (talk) 04:46, September 26, 2013 (UTC) Karin actually brought it up when she reunited with Taka after they resurrected the previous Hokage in Chapter 627. SixthMizukage (talk) 05:06, September 26, 2013 (UTC) I thought she had mentioned it somewhere, just couldn't remember where.--J spencer93 (talk) 15:26, September 26, 2013 (UTC) Or you are reading a wrong translation--Elveonora (talk) 19:46, September 26, 2013 (UTC) if it were a "wrong translation" what else would suigetsu say?--Caseather (talk) 20:19, September 26, 2013 (UTC) :MS's translation says no such thing for example.--Elveonora (talk) 22:06, September 26, 2013 (UTC) what i read was from "manga panda", what did manga stream translate his line as?--Caseather (talk) 22:33, September 26, 2013 (UTC) Mangastream's translation also had Karin saying that Sasuke stabbed her. She was mentioning it when she saw that Orochimaru was with them. SixthMizukage (talk) 00:34, September 27, 2013 (UTC) come on guys... slow down a bit So Orochimaru's Juinjutsu is now Senjutsu? You are taking what's been said at face value. So Naruto transferring Kurama's chakra makes Chakra Transfer Technique tailed beast skill or something? Unless "x-jutsu" is a requirement to use a technique, the said technique isn't listed as "x-jutsu" how come someone sealing senjutsu chakra and an enzyme into people equals sage technique? So sealing a fire into a scroll makes the used fuuinjutsu a Fire Release or something?--Elveonora (talk) 22:24, September 26, 2013 (UTC) Well, it's been repeatedly stated in the manga, iirc, that the CS is based on senjutsu/uses it. Take that as you wish. But senjutsu =/= (or != if you like) Sage Mode. The two are different subjects. Senjutsu is, at its core, using natural energy to perform a technique. I agree on the rest, though. --Taynio (talk) 22:31, September 26, 2013 (UTC) :"Senjutsu (仙術; English TV "Sage Jutsu"; Literally meaning "Sage Techniques") refers to a specialised field of techniques that allows the user to sense and then gather the natural energy (自然エネルギー, shizen enerugī) around a person" Cursed Seal users do neither, senjutsu chakra is being pumped into their bodies from magical tattoo on their intimate parts. Just like the people in alliance with Naruto's Kurama cloaks aren't jinchuuriki, so this is the same. But thinking about Orochimaru's Juinjutsu more, gotta take back my statement. The point of it is to make bitten subject use senjutsu chakra and as such, the technique in theory could be done without the senjutsu chakra but then it would loose its point. In conclusion, I guess the "senjutsu" classification is justified then... since it's "mandatory" to achieve the desired effect--Elveonora (talk) 23:05, September 26, 2013 (UTC) So I get it you disagree Cerez? We need more opinions--Elveonora (talk) 21:52, September 27, 2013 (UTC) : Orochimaru said it was Senjutsu. Has called it Senjutsu before. Said it involved his Senjutsu chakra. I don't know what more you need, Elv. I know its not convenient for a few of your theories; as one, this proves that Sage Mode is not a direct result of molding Senjutsu chakra (i.e, Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode, yet can use Senjutsu chakra, Jugo's chakra has now been stated to be Senjutsu chakra and results in an entirely different transformation, etc). But when Kishi, through Orochimaru, states that the cursed seals are a direct result of Senjutsu, then that's exactly what it is. You're not going to change anyone's mind by arguing against the manga. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:04, September 27, 2013 (UTC) ::This poking of yours was completely unneeded. In case you didn't notice, above I've also come to the conclusion that it might as well be Senjutsu. For the rest, I guess you just couldn't help but to be an asshole. So gotta play equally: * yes, Sage Mode is a direct result of molding Senjutsu chakra and Orochimaru can use it * you might have missed the point of the topic, the chapter hasn't said anything new we didn't know already before, it's about logic behind classifying it as Senjutsu. On one hand I also conclude as such because it's the idea behind the technique, to transfer Senjutsu chakra, on the other I disagree as just because a fuuinjutsu is used to transfer x it doesn't make it the x Naruto transfers Kurama's chakra to everyone, does that make it a tailed beast skill?--Elveonora (talk) 22:20, September 27, 2013 (UTC)